Has anyone else come across the dogma of vipassana as taught by Goenka?
I ask because I have this recurring issue. 2 years ago after I having sat two 10 day sits preveiously, I applied to serve a course. Because I said on the application that I did "other" forms of meditation, they asked that I sit the course instead of serve so I could "decide" if vipassana was the meditation practice for me. At that point I was sitting 2 hours a day. I ditched Vipassana. I stopped practicing.
Now I wish to resume practice. I applied to sit a 10 day course and on this application I wrote that I did not do any other meditation practices. I have been called and asked if I stopped doing the other practices or what is going on with that...like they have it in my file that I do other practices or something.
The frustrating thing to me is that it does not matter. Would the Buddha turn me away? No.
I am abandoning the Goenka Vipassana centers. I feel that their approach is like most of Christianity...it's just not following the teachings of the teacher.
Thanks for listening. I am really frustrated.
Lesson is: When applying for a Goenka course do NOT say that you do other meditation practices. THey don't need to know.
I ask because I have this recurring issue. 2 years ago after I having sat two 10 day sits preveiously, I applied to serve a course. Because I said on the application that I did "other" forms of meditation, they asked that I sit the course instead of serve so I could "decide" if vipassana was the meditation practice for me. At that point I was sitting 2 hours a day. I ditched Vipassana. I stopped practicing.
Now I wish to resume practice. I applied to sit a 10 day course and on this application I wrote that I did not do any other meditation practices. I have been called and asked if I stopped doing the other practices or what is going on with that...like they have it in my file that I do other practices or something.
The frustrating thing to me is that it does not matter. Would the Buddha turn me away? No.
I am abandoning the Goenka Vipassana centers. I feel that their approach is like most of Christianity...it's just not following the teachings of the teacher.
Thanks for listening. I am really frustrated.
Lesson is: When applying for a Goenka course do NOT say that you do other meditation practices. THey don't need to know.
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Re: Dogma
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 3:53 PMwow, that's weird. I said on the application that I had done meditation in the past, but only sporadically, and they accepted me. -
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Re: Dogma
Tue, January 10, 2006 - 4:09 PMYes, but like I said I had sat 2 courses no problem with saying that. Then when I wanted to serve a course...not sit but serve, they wanted me to commit to just Vipassana...and now I have a bad record or something. :-) totally wierd
I like the technique. -
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Re: Dogma
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 1:23 PM
Hi shaUna,
it even became worse. I have practiced for 10 years Goenkaji's method without practicing any other meditations. After such a long time, I naturally have my own experiences from Vipassana-practice - and opinions about the way courses are run.
Now - after having shared my personal opinions with a high-ranking teacher of Goenka - I was told that I would be only allowed back, after having relinquished my opinions. Not to talk about long-courses - no: even group-sittings!
After failing to get Goenka to give a clear answer to such exclusions - now I wrote a website and you might be interested:
de.geocities.com/pamojja/_...assana.htm
Never forget, the practice can't be taken away, nor the understanding which came along with it... anicca. -
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Re: Dogma
Sat, June 10, 2006 - 2:40 PMQuote: After failing to get Goenka to give a clear answer to such exclusions - now I wrote a website and you might be interested...
My site at de.geocities.com/pamojja has been closed down by the host. Now I have put it up at:
vipassana-inquiry.gmxhome.de/
metta... -
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Re: Dogma
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 11:20 AMBen-
Nope. It is what it is, at least for this A.T. Unless I only committ to Vipassana, I cannot sit her course.
I realize that I don't need to go to a center to have meditation. I prefer to create my own retreats in the woods. REally it is a gift for me to do what inspires me most. THan k you Vipassana. -
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Re: Dogma
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 9:44 AMShaUna
I have seen personally and heard of many people trying reikhi along with Vipassana go bonkers or at least unnstable. So please be careful if you are dabbling in reikhi along with Vipassana.
So before I say any more on this thing about dogmas & some assistant/teachers' biases, I would like to know which other meditation technique you are also doing. It is always dangerous to ride with each leg on a different horse. Moreso on a Spiritual path Now that you've done two courses, I'd strongly urge you to choose one of the techniques, and follow that only,at least for a few years. then if you wish you may change. But please practice one technique only and
Be Happy
Metta! -
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Unsu...
Re: Dogma
Thu, January 4, 2007 - 2:35 PMI think as Goenka says
dont listen to what he says
untill you experience it your self
everyone has a karma
and its different for everyone
I think that Vipassna has its onw dogma
for sure
but I also
think its is a very powerfull techinique
a lot of people
lie at the application forms becuase they want to get the benefits fo it
and I never heard of anyone
go crazy from Reiki
I know a woman who does Reiki on a regural bases and goes to Vipassna
so
only Buddha him self
is relay in charge
and knows the absolute truth
not everyone who is a teacher at vipassna retreats is there yet
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Re: Dogma
Thu, January 4, 2007 - 8:55 AMHi, pamojja, I read your page with great interest. There is a lot of information there that I found useful, thank you. I was left slightly confused though - probably I have missed this - do you have something resembling a brief statement of intent somewhere there? In other words, what precisely are you trying to accomplish? -
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Re: Dogma
Fri, January 5, 2007 - 4:30 PMHi Max,
Glad you found something useful there. My intent for that page was growing. First it was just the natural urge to be truthful with, and say, what I think and feel.
For example, I was simply unsettled seeing not really any care taken for meditators getting troubled through this method - which I simply couldn't believe being true. - After my own practice of vipassana had opened up abilities for me of really taking care - not only for myself - but for others too.
Then the attempt to quieten any such of my sentiments from the highest authority within our organization - where I expected it the least - made me even more concerned to see that this doesn't get swept under the carpet any further.
I just wanted to make it public and warn others, so that each one, who really benefited through this practice, could take precaution not to get under the same sway of deceptions. After all, I guess it the worst which could happen to practitioners of vipassana - not being allowed to trust their own experience anymore. And 'having' to believe.
So I wrote in my introduction to it:
'This page is intended to improve mutual understanding, to be prepared to reveal sectarian tendencies in its beginnings - and that no one has to fear to be kicked out by telling his opinions anymore.'
Guess that's my briefest statement about my intent with it. If you found something useful - it didn't miss its point. If someone would start to question and inquire with all his might - leaving such trivialities as our organization behind - but his very sukkha, nicca and atta. - Then I would be truly silenced .. :-) -
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Re: Dogma
Wed, January 10, 2007 - 6:16 AMHonestly, pamojja, I bow down before your selflessness. I know that I am not able to do something like this at my level. You are engaging in politics, however, and even with best intentions in hand, due to its nature politics can be very destructive to the soul. I only hope that you are sufficiently advanced (I know you are much more so than me) to constantly monitor how this experience is affecting your practice. Because if it is affecting it adversely, then of course will end up helping neither yourself nor others. But surely you already know all this, so all I can do is thank you. -
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Re: Dogma
Sun, February 18, 2007 - 5:55 AMHi Max,
no reason to bow down to ' M Y ' selflessness!
Selflessness - Anatta - is the very given of reality, which is freeing of persisting opinions about oneself - if it seen into. And as this seeing through continues - any notion of advance, or being more advance than others - simply drops. Together with the big burden such views about oneself brings as its package. However, due to Anicca, I still carry my rucksack of burdens. Sometimes it's havier - sometimes it gets light. But one thing is true: I don't worry as much anymore about 'progressing' in any way - also due to Anicca. - Awareness of Anicca will take care of it all.
From this point of view - becoming aware of Anicca of all direct experience really impies being aware of one's intentions at one point too, and that will bring it's own results. - The perception of a 'beginner' or 'advanced' meditator doesn't makes any difference to the certainty in respect to the results of becoming aware ...
However, if you say 'I am engaging in politics' I do feel the weight of my rucksack ;-) and I would like to clarify, that this is not the case - any more than journalism does. Journalists, usually, don't enter the arena where they could exercise the power which directly could affect others. Despite the fact of Anicca of any intentions, I am pretty sure of my intention not to enter this arena, ever - worldly or otherwise - other than musing aloud about the process of suffering and the ceasing of it.
regards
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Re: Dogma
Sun, July 1, 2007 - 5:10 PMI just wanted to thank Pamojja for creating the website above. I recently attended a 10-day course and while I feel it was a positive experience I came away with some of the same doubts voiced by the author. Reading through the points on the site really crystallized some of the problems I had with the Goenka organization's dogmatic stance to the practice. My "monkey mind" has been recycling the same arguments over and over again for the past few days and seeing them explored has helped me come to terms with how I feel about the whole thing so that they don't bother me as much. Although I have not completely decided yet, the conclusion I am coming to is that while Goenka's organization has been extremely beneficial in getting non-buddhists and non-meditating buddhists on the path, existing committed buddhists would be better of sticking with whatever tradition they are practicing in, especially if Vipassana is a part of that tradition.
Thanks once again for taking the time to create the site, I hope others find it useful as well.
with metta,
Greg
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Re: Dogma
Sat, June 10, 2006 - 4:42 AMHi Shauna
I can kind of understand why you might think that it is dogmatic that the assistant teacher requested that you give up your other meditation techniques before serving a course. I dont know your exact situation but as an old student I wouldnt like you to give up this wonderful technique because of this. The assistant teacher may have had a good reason for suggesting this to you and I dont think you should read too much into it. Maybe you could ring up the A.T or the head teacher at the centre and ask them for their reasons, usually they are quite practical ones and Im sure it has nothing to do with any dogma. I have done several courses and am generally very skeptical but I have found nothing within Vipassana that could be considered dogma. It doesnt sound like they are preventing you from taking more course so why not keep at it if you like the technique :) It truly is a gem.
kind regards
ben
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Re: Dogma
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 1:14 PMAs someone who has sat and studied with a lot of different Buddhist groups and lineages, yes, this is my biggest problem with the Goenka organization/lineage. I love their sinceririty, I love the dana-based organizations, I love the tightness of the container they create, I love most of Goenka's teachings, I love their emphasis on sitting, I love the strong grounding in anceient Buddhist wisdom. traditionalism.
I don't like the cultiness, though - the "Goenka says ...", and the idea put forth that this lineage is the One True Teaching (which I was dismayed to hear Goenka say in the lectures that I saw during the three ten-days that I took in North Fork CA). -
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Re: Dogma
Sun, June 18, 2006 - 11:46 AMHi Adam,
your short post really brings it to the point.
However, sometimes I think, if Goenka really has practiced what he teaches and became as wise as I believe one can get through such sincere practice - therefore, maybe, he had to invent something ('the only way') to dismay disciples not to become overly content with it's style? - And really to investigate also on one's own?
At least that it caused me to: I really wanted to know if the dismay only came from such 'cultiness'. And therefore did a lot of self-retreats - in caves, woods, lonely beaches - on my own. Admittedly, now I can't deny that wherever you practice this method, dismay can never be prevented to come up in one form of hindrance, or the other.
So, all the times I practiced again in Goenka's courses I also knew - beside the certainty (out of life's experience and the Pali Suttas) that there never can only be 'only one way' - the moment I also suffered under such dogmatism - right there was something to learn to let go.
I remember so well my first 10-days of a self-retreat on an lonely Andaman Island beach. There were so many 'hermit crabs' (don't know why they were ever called 'hermit') - they quite could take it up with Goenka's dogmatism - to drive me up the palms!
But moreover, some of such self-retreats really went as deep - in understanding - as I don't think a Goenka-course, with so many participants around, could ever gone so easily.
That seems what ShaUna has experienced right now, after creating her own retreats in the woods - and how inspiring that can become. (so glad you found that out too, ShaUna)
Out of the independency in practice, such dogmatism can lead to - through such gobbled ways - in the end everything seems in its right place.
But to those who really buy into such dogmatism - to them I consider it helpful to take a stand against. After all, Goenka's organization is only dependently arising with its meditators (about 90 percent of first-course students never come back to a second course!) and dhamma-workers. Therefore, these courses, in reality, become as dogmatic as much as we are inclined to become.
Here a short excerpt out of Majjhima Nikaya 95 about dogmatism:
There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
"But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth... (well worth to read the whole Sutta - translation by Ven. Thanissaro))
May the very best come true for all of you, -
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Those who know, don't talk; those who talk, don't know.
Sun, September 10, 2006 - 3:29 PMDearest Pamojja,
Have you not suffer enough? Having devoted so much of your time and energy, knocking on so many doors and windows from outside of Goenka's tribe (GT), frantically seeking a listening ear or an audience to your grievances. Better to save your time for personal growth in Dhamma.
Your personal Pativedha (realizable experiences), Pariyatti (theological understanding), and Patipatti (sitting experiences); even if its true and correct, may not be accepted anytime soon if ever by the GT. Your effort/expectation to convince the GT to embrace your view is liken to asking the Lutheran denomination to do Hail Mary! on Sunday services.
Most of us (me included) may not fully comprehend the nature of your issues/webpages. It is beyond the scope of my understanding and comprehension. Do you know if any forefathers (Sayadaw Ledi, Saya Thetgyi, Sayagyi U Ba Khin or even Ven. Webu) from the GT share your same view and understanding? If not, then you fighting an uphill battle.
Brother, may you find whatever you are seeking, may you action fill with happiness and peace.
Sincerely yours,
Grasshopper -
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anicca anicca anicca
Mon, September 11, 2006 - 3:16 PMi completely relate to all of these experiences.
in the courses i've taken, i've emerged often with a "grain of salt" explanation for myself because i interpret the discourses as somewhat dogmatic in nature, even though the AT's and Goenka himself would explain it other wise.
i've made myself more agitated trying to figure it all out -- trying to debunk yet another path that is fallable. OK! so it's fallable. big news. not rocket science. but does it offer you a way out of your own suffering?? if not, find another path, because that is all this path wants for you. Just like Christianity, & Buddhism, & Hinduism, Taoism, and Islam, and Bahai, and Judaism. Each offers a path -- if it works great. We're all talking 'bout the same thing. Love? right?
Each path asks us stop suffering. stop projecting your suffering on others. get real with ourselves about what life has in store for us. experience life and joy and pass it along. do what you can to alleviate the suffering of others. Do the work on the mat to understand why we are bent on suffering, and let it go now, and let it go again tomorrow. keep letting it go every day if you can. if you can't, do it the next day. just do it. (how annoying. sorry)
my favorite magazine "the sun" printed a quote by the editor Sy Safransky:
"Living more mindfully means
living more mindfully. It doesn't mean
judging myself [ie: or anyone else] for
not being more mindful."
be well on your path to mindfullness.
cheers,
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Unsu...
Re: Dogma
Sat, January 6, 2007 - 9:37 AMtotaly agree Adam
its a cult of its own
for sure
which does not mean that there is not a truth of the teachign embeded in it
I always wathc out for the discourses becuase they are almost like a brainwashing technique
the ultimate truth is one
and god has many languages
and faces
again
there is a lot of wisdom and I sitll think Goenka is a great Master
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Re: Dogma
Wed, June 21, 2006 - 10:10 PMWow.dont be arrogant .This 'I' wont help you.
the teacher only meant for you to stop practicing other meditations for only 10 days while you were there.but I dont think you should have stop practicing only because of that.
I have been to this tribe for a few days and people are saying that Goenkaji forces people to do only this meditation.I really dont agree.May be A.T.s over there are giving that impression.
Goenkaji doesnt do publicity to spread the teechnique but he wants the power and the truth in dhamma to spread the Vipassana.He says by practicing vipassana correctly meditator will see by her self how technique it self.He has never asked to stop other practices except for the 10-day course.
I just have to say this you western people are really arrogant.Just for once in you life do as you are told to do.And be aware of what you are doing.
Be Happy.
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Re: Dogma
Mon, June 26, 2006 - 12:19 AMShauna
May I reuest you to relook at things; like I illustrate;
Suppose u are a very sharp student and take up a course of Civil Engineering with an ultimate aim to make a livelihood; as there are many other courses which may provide livelihood say Medicine, or an MBA , and u leave before completing the engineering course and join medicine similarly u get disenchanted with medicine as lots of are books are to be read, names are to be remembered u give up and join MBA. Can u derive any benifit out of this and have a proper background for making a livelyhood???
Yes if u feel that the camps provide lots of regulations. Don't join a course take leave of 10 days and complete the course at home find for yourself whether it serves any good: If not then forget about it BUT u must give the technique a fair trail I feel
May I also request you join my network, Never mind if u don't want to!
Regards
Manoj -
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Stop driving yourself nuts
Sat, July 22, 2006 - 2:57 PMI have defenitely had to get in touch with my inner rebel or "jack bower" through the 10day vipassana retreats.... (happened a lot when i started getting in touch with the sensations in my balls by the way, interesting side point).
My rebellion: I personally really like to take walks, somtimes i feel like when i am getting really uncentered i just want to take a fucking 10minute walk and this fucking asshole course admin guy is riding my ass.... and its like christ, i just want to take a 30 minute walk, out of the fucking 10 hours a day of meditation, and its not because i am retreating, i just need a f'in break, because i am compassionate with myself and i need a break.... and for fuck sake i have an awakened kyundalini, and my spine is on fire all the time, you guys are like falling asleep and sittting theirt like you are drooping over watching tv, i am fing on fire, 10 hours day, and just let me walk before i blow a fireball!! and i tdont think you understand the kind of shit i am dealing with, and just goddamn it, i am going to scream!!!!! and this little pip squeak guy who is totally using this class as a way to retreat having to actually relate to the world, is using this technique as a power trip and ahhhH!!!! (hehehe i dont actually say anything though)... argh.... anyway so then i sit down and the question arises, why am i caring so much about this, why am i holding onto this..... anna panna....
My advice
i suggest you just forget all this questioning.... i suggest you stop trying to hard to understand everything. i suggest that your crusade to prove all that is wrong about the course is making you a little bit agitated, and annoyed, so i guess the question is, why are you agitating yourself? It seems like you are having a tuff time integrating your cerebral cortex with the process.... you can use your analytical brain in a way that actually promotes and deepens your meditation but it seems to me that your analytical mind is not on board with your practice.... this is not to say to forget pana, wisdom will come, just stop reaching for it so hard....
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become harmless - stop driving yourself nuts
Sat, August 19, 2006 - 3:14 PMWell, Todd,
I'm not really sure - but your advise seems aimed at me and my website. Otherwise just forget about the following:
To keep Sila (harmlessness) is not driving nuts - it will lead to onepointedness and wisdom.
Likewise, to encourage others in harmlessness - to point it out if there is hurt without personal condemnation - is the way to peace.
Much Metta...
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Re: Dogma
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 12:58 PMHi, Shauna,
That's too bad about them turning you away. I've only sat one Goenka course and loved it, but also found it entertaining in its rigidity. For me, in learning, that form worked well. I've never had the impression that they say there is only one way, but they do take the strong approach that you should only *practice* one way & focus on that alone, and that if you switch between various approaches all will get watered down and be ineffective. And they do take a harder line with more experienced students -- the more courses you attend, the more focused on Goenka's teachings they expect you to be.
I think there may be something to the idea that it is better to focus on one technique in order to grow with it and in it, but that's just me, and in saying that I do not mean to suggest that Goenka's way is the only way. However, that "one" way for you may represent a mixture of ways for someone else.
BUT please don't equate Vipassana with Goenka!
Goenka is merely one teacher, promoting his interpretation of vipassana and the Buddha's message. But there are other vipassana teachers and practitioners who have different approaches. In that way it is very much like Christianity. Don't let Goenka's narrow approach and that AT's lack of compassion turn you away from Vipassana in general, if Vipassana is something that works for you. They are just people, imperfect people as we all are. Check out some of the other vipassana sittings and courses and other instructors that better meet your needs. My philosophy is to simply take what works for me and leave the rest; no one teacher is going to meet all of my needs or consistently meet all of my expectations.
Goenka's courses are what they are. They offer tremendous access to vipassana instruction according to one approach, but that is also all that they offer. As such, they will work well for some and poorly for others, and that may change for a given individual over time. Try not to let it get under your skin or affect your practice. -
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Re: Dogma
Thu, January 11, 2007 - 2:50 PMfor myself this is simple. the course offered at Goenka retreats is a donation based course with the intention of offering the most amount of people possible a chance to learn and perfect this meditation technique. if it works for you then that is what you should practice. if it doesn't work for you then you should move on until you find a technique which does work for you. if it does work for you but you also choose to practice other techniques then you are diluting the value of all those techniques. in this case you are also taking up valuable space which could be offered to other students who either have yet to learn or are interested in deepening their chosen practice. in effect it would seem that you are using the retreat as a great place to get away from it all rather than as a generous opportunity to further your dedicated practice.
withhugsandmetta, -
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Re: Dogma
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 3:35 PMI fully agreed to sit only Vipassana during the 10 days and that was not good enough. She wanted full committment to only Vipassana away from the center as well. THis is my issue with it. Even after I said that I sit 1 hour in am and 1 hour in pm every day for the past 1 year, that was still not good enough. Even when I said that it is the basis for all the other kind of meditative techniques I use in my life, still she would not agree for me to serve. I could sit the course, not serve. You see?
Friends who sit have since recommended not mentioning the other techniques on the application which is good sound advice.
I personally will sit elsewhere as I give thanks for the teachings and choose a different path of Vipassana. -
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Re: Dogma
Sun, July 8, 2007 - 10:54 AMHi Shauna,
I feel that not knowing (ignorance) why you have been stoppped from serving the course is the real problem. When that happens we all tend to fill in the blanks our selves. The feeling that you have been rejected through no fault of your own has obviously played heavly on your mind. And you have then seeked others to back up your grevences.
I am no teacher but I can understand why they would not allow you to serve if you continue to practice other techniques after sitting a few courses.
I have had depression for many years and doubt has plaged my mind on countles occasions. I found it a great relief when I sat my first course. I had a very valuable tool to deal with my problems and understand them better. There had been times after that course and other courses when I needed some clarity and many people offered many oppinions on the technique, what they liked and what they disliked. Whilst serving on work periods at the centre in the uk were I live, I have found myself drawn into conversations about other techniques . It did not help, although people meant well their experiences were there`s and often did not make sense to me. I was having enough trouble trying to work out my own head and now there were other thoughts to contend with. There was this one guy who seemed to polute the atmostphere as he seemed to be rebelling against the fact that Gonkaji says just one technique should be practiced. He thought it would be fine to practice several at once and tried to convince others to do the same. I felt anoyed that he would try to preach to me. I had so many troubles and was trying to understand just this technique. Make up your mind I kept saying to him. All the time I was getting more confused and increasingly avioded him. It should not be like this when a person serves a course. the atmostphere should be pure. When you serve it should be to help others get established in the technique they have chosen. It should be that you are an example to those who are feeling lost. If you are lost how can that benifit them? How can your lack of commitment to a practice (what ever that practice may be)help those who follow in your foot steps? Find a technique and stick to it. It does not have to be this one, just one that is acceptable to you. When you find one that works for you then you will progress on that path far further than if you keep bouncing from one to another. Please understand I wish nothing but good will. I have struggled for years of doubt about myself and sometimes this technique, if had thrown other techniques into the mix I don`t know where my mind would be. I do know were it is now though and every day its more full of love for myself and others than yesterday. Love to you and all.
Some points
If you lie about your other practices on an apllication form and then take the 5 precepts of morality one of them not to lie how do you think your mind will be on a course? It will not serve you well or others.
Teachers as with the rest of us will not progress if they are immoral and they are very aware of the disharmony it creates within them. To be able to complete a 30 day course there must be a depth of balance and purity. Teachers views may change slitly but the practice works only one way. Take bits out or polute it and it falls down.
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Re: Dogma
Wed, July 11, 2007 - 11:30 AMShauna,
I can well understand the predicament you and others like you face with the Vipassana authorities. My suggestion is to try ubakhin.com/ They teach the same way that Mr Goenka teaches vipassana. In fact IMC is the original center where Goenka learnt Vipassana himself.
But whatever, continue practicing with your daily sittings &
Be Happy
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Re: Dogma
Wed, January 17, 2007 - 6:53 PMI have heard from some good friends who went through the Goenka 10 day retreats that this cultist dogma was something to be mindful of. Not that it has to ruin things, but I guess in your case shaUna it did since they wouldn't let you back!
Has anyone been to a Bhavana Society (Bhante G.) retreat?:
www.bhavanasociety.org/
I read his wonderful and very non-dogmatic "Mindfulness in Plain English" and am considering traveling all the way across the country to attend one of the retreats there instead of the much closer Goenka, but am not sure yet. I might try the 10 day Goenka retreat and see how that goes. I hear they can be very powerful and useful retreats.
namaste,
-beb
PS "MIPE" can be read free in PDF format here:
www.urbandharma.org/pdf/mind...glish.pdf
PPS One of my fav quotes from MIPE:
" When you first begin this procedure, expect to face some difficulties. Your mind will wander off constantly, darting around like a drunken bumblebee and zooming off on wild tangents. Try not to worry. The monkey-minded phenomenon is well known. It is something that every advanced meditator has had to deal with. They have pushed through it one way or another, and so can you. When it happens, just not the fact that you have been thinking, day-dreaming, worrying, or whatever. Gently, but firmly, without getting upset or judging yourself for straying, simply return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again the next time, and again, an again, and again.
Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels barreling pell-mell down the hill, utterly out of control and hopeless. No problem. You are not crazier than you were yesterday. It has always been this way, and you just never noticed. You are also no crazier than everybody else around you. The only real difference is that you have confronted the situation; they have not. So they still feel relatively comfortable. That does not mean that they are better off. Ignorance may be bliss, but it does not lead to liberation. So don't let this realization unsettle you. It is a milestone actually, a sigh of real progress. The very fact that you have looked at the problem straight in the eye means that you are on your way up and out of it. "
LOL :)
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Re: Dogma
Thu, July 19, 2007 - 9:02 AMI've served on a course, and I remember the ATs telling any new servers joining mid way through the course to meditate before performing any tasks, such as cooking for the students. This is to ensure a positive and calm energy is maintained through out the center. If you're agitated and prepare food for the students, you'll transfer that negative energy to the students, and might affect their daily sits making it difficult for them to learn.
I was told that intense passion (sexual) can taint a mediation center for more than 200 years, so a different vibe/energy that is not conducive to learning the technique and focusing on looking within can do a lot of harm
After the 4th day, most students will be in a highly focused and receptive state, so slight energy disturbance can throw their mental balance off, and again hamper their progress. Perhaps the AT was worried that other forms of meditation would affect the students as it may carry a different energy/vibration. This is a 2500 years old technique, kept as pure and unchanged as possible by the Burmese, and reintroduced to the rest of the world again. Enlightenment is a long path, if this technique works, they don't want to change it. This is about commitment, or at least for 10 days. Now ATs are people too, with their own ego and opinions, they are not created equal, but I don't think they would turn anyone away unless they are severly mentally imbalanced. Serving is another matter, you have the responsiblity of caring for others and help them progress, if you are not commited to that purpose, then you might slow and harm the progress of others.
Just my humble observation and opinion.
with metta
Sean -
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Re: Dogma
Thu, July 26, 2007 - 6:44 AMI've done many a Vipassana retreat both Goenka's and as well as other teachers and monks and after a while I realized that I needed to let go of the teachers and the traditions and remember what I was actually there for - the practice. There are always going to be little issues within any organization and frankly I feel like Goenka's holds it together relatively well. The technique is available for people to practice and for most people looking for the basics this is good enough. Personally I have always felt that advanced practitioners tend to choose either one of two paths staying with the Goenka style or branching off and finding other ways and methods to integrate into their own. Over all I feel that the benefit of these courses for the planet far outweighs any disadvantages, but having said that I'd encourage people with issues to absorb what is useful and discard what is not.
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Unsu...
Re: Dogma
Wed, August 29, 2007 - 2:14 AMYou could try another school of vipassana. Goenka vipassana is very strict in a bearucratic way and there is good reason. Mixing his vipassana with other techniques can be dangerous on a course. It is a powerful meditation I will give it that much credit but I feel it is cult like because many meditators believe whatever he says even though he says to question authority. I have never seen any historic evidence that 'his' kind of courses were run in the days of the Buddha. If anyone else has proof to the contrary then please inform me of where I can find it. With this reasoning, I do not see Goenka vipassana courses as being suitable for the general public. There is no way that people can be effectively screened for the gruelling courses offered. I am surprised that no one has been assaulted by another meditator in one of these world wide courses. I have experienced a person yelling at the AT in the hall, seen a martial arts expert going ballistic and scaling a site barrier and I have heard of another person trying to burn a vipassana building down with meth spirits after destroying a computer. What happens if an innocent student is assaulted or murdered on a course by another student who cracks? This is why you don't mix techniques on a course and this is why their screening processes offer no guarantee of yours or anyone elses safety. -
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Re: Dogma
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 1:47 PMIn general, I can understand the importance of singularity when it comes to meditation practices. Though I've read several second-hand stories online about severe detriments (temporary/permanent mental instability or illness) that could insue from mixing other meditative practices with vipassana, I've yet to come across anyone's personal account of experiencing severe mental instability.
Do any of you know of links to peoples' personal stories of breakdowns from combining practices? I realize it'd be a sensitive issue to share with the world online, but I figure that someone--even anonymously--would have shared their story online by now.
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Unsu...
Re: Dogma
Sat, May 31, 2008 - 8:21 AMI have experienced vipassana dogma over many years. The center is like a cult impound for brain washing people into certain desired thoughts and anyone disagree with this cult gets the heave ho quick smart if they have the strength to resist these robots. It doesn't matter if money is the motive or anything else. It is the volition of the brain washing or manipulation that goes on at such centres. The ATs are creepy people. The vipassana centres are creepy although they are supposed to be the antidote for the other creepy religious cults, groups followings that we have to choose from. If you every question Goenkas philosphy to an AT then you will not get a warm answer back. You will be told that you are there to practise, not to philospherfize(pardon spelling) or not to think in a critical manner that humans have the right to do. All in all I do not consider Goenka to be that bad a person. To me he is a kind of watered down Hitler or Stalin who offers lollypops to us with the same old line ' this is the path'. Goenka is a 'stream winner' and as such is the supreme guru to his followers if they go for that kind fo belief. Christianity doesn't seem all that bad to me these days. -
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Unsu...
Re: Dogma
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 11:00
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