i just got back from a 10 day retreat a week ago. it was difficult, painful, i learned a lot about myself, and i grew a great deal as an individual; but peace and calm? not so much. this was both during the retreat (especially the last couple days) and now afterward, but the agitation i experienced now and then have very different sources and symptoms.
during:
the cult-like aspects were very hard to ignore. what one goes through is essentially 10 days of sensory deprivation, a dramatic change in eating, sleeping, and (if one is normally physically active) exertion patterns. this on top of the 10 hours of meditation per day puts one in a very receptive - and vulnerable - mental state. the first part of the course was excellent, but during the latter it became increasingly dogmatic (despite repeated protests to the contrary) and bizarre. they say one can leave out any part that he/she is not ready to accept but they wait until day 7 or so (when one is highly vulnerable) to get into the really religious stuff, tons of chanting (esp the last 2 days), spiritual vessels to be filled, ect... and they pound it in hard with constant repetition.
they also teach peace, love, kindness, and happiness for all beings; especially blessed are those who have found vipassana through "some good karma of past lives". i know that ppl probably want to leave all the time and through encouragement make it through and are happy to have stayed. but there are limits to the level of "encouragement" that is ethical. when someone is having a breakdown, stringing them on for days is anything but kind: "just stay for the discourse, what you're feeling is normal' "just stay the night; it's too late to leave now", 'just stay until lunch and talk to the AT"... three days later the person completely looses it and flees sobbing uncontrollably and staggering under the weight of baggage. how about giving up on getting the person to stay, help them understand that it is ok to feel the way they do, and that there is no shame in needing to leave? love, kindness, happiness, and compassion for all beings... except those who can't make it through such a psychologically harrowing experience.
hypocrisy leaves a vile taste in my mouth, and no doubt had a great deal of impact on my perception of the religious indoctrination i was simultaneously being subjected to. but regardless, many ppl seem to find great peace and solace and i will leave them to their chosen path with no further comment. the technique is excellent and useful and that is what is important. my question is about the after effects:
the few people i have spoken to have come from retreats calm and full of peace, ready to focus and get on with their lives. i, on the other hand, am a basket case. i feel like a child who has been watching way too much hyper television: i feel over-stimulated to the point of mania by the craziness of the world around me and my mind is constantly verging on either hysteria or shutdown or both. i have zero focus, every time i try to assimilate new information (i'm in school again) my mind just retreats: i constantly wake up in class or studying not even realizing that i had fallen asleep or remembering feeling tired in the slightest; complete mental shutdown. i feel centered but ungrounded; balanced delicately on a spire of nothingness. group socialization is a futile and painful endeavor; 1 on 1 is almost as bad; the resocialization process progresses in an agonizingly glacial manner (i know i am getting better but not nearly as fast as life requires). i find that i need to frequently retreat behind closed eyes, escape from the bombardment of stimulation, and almost instantly the sensations come flooding in, my body vibrating, pulsating, subtly expanding and contracting (separate from both the pulse and the breath): i don't know if this escape helps or makes things worse. it is almost as if all my senses sharpened and focused to the point where it seems like i have lost the ability to filter out extraneous sensory input and the sheer mass of it is overwhelming. i am treading water in a stormy sea. waves crash over my head. i am exhausted.
if anyone has any experience, insight, or advice they wish to share it would be most appreciated.
during:
the cult-like aspects were very hard to ignore. what one goes through is essentially 10 days of sensory deprivation, a dramatic change in eating, sleeping, and (if one is normally physically active) exertion patterns. this on top of the 10 hours of meditation per day puts one in a very receptive - and vulnerable - mental state. the first part of the course was excellent, but during the latter it became increasingly dogmatic (despite repeated protests to the contrary) and bizarre. they say one can leave out any part that he/she is not ready to accept but they wait until day 7 or so (when one is highly vulnerable) to get into the really religious stuff, tons of chanting (esp the last 2 days), spiritual vessels to be filled, ect... and they pound it in hard with constant repetition.
they also teach peace, love, kindness, and happiness for all beings; especially blessed are those who have found vipassana through "some good karma of past lives". i know that ppl probably want to leave all the time and through encouragement make it through and are happy to have stayed. but there are limits to the level of "encouragement" that is ethical. when someone is having a breakdown, stringing them on for days is anything but kind: "just stay for the discourse, what you're feeling is normal' "just stay the night; it's too late to leave now", 'just stay until lunch and talk to the AT"... three days later the person completely looses it and flees sobbing uncontrollably and staggering under the weight of baggage. how about giving up on getting the person to stay, help them understand that it is ok to feel the way they do, and that there is no shame in needing to leave? love, kindness, happiness, and compassion for all beings... except those who can't make it through such a psychologically harrowing experience.
hypocrisy leaves a vile taste in my mouth, and no doubt had a great deal of impact on my perception of the religious indoctrination i was simultaneously being subjected to. but regardless, many ppl seem to find great peace and solace and i will leave them to their chosen path with no further comment. the technique is excellent and useful and that is what is important. my question is about the after effects:
the few people i have spoken to have come from retreats calm and full of peace, ready to focus and get on with their lives. i, on the other hand, am a basket case. i feel like a child who has been watching way too much hyper television: i feel over-stimulated to the point of mania by the craziness of the world around me and my mind is constantly verging on either hysteria or shutdown or both. i have zero focus, every time i try to assimilate new information (i'm in school again) my mind just retreats: i constantly wake up in class or studying not even realizing that i had fallen asleep or remembering feeling tired in the slightest; complete mental shutdown. i feel centered but ungrounded; balanced delicately on a spire of nothingness. group socialization is a futile and painful endeavor; 1 on 1 is almost as bad; the resocialization process progresses in an agonizingly glacial manner (i know i am getting better but not nearly as fast as life requires). i find that i need to frequently retreat behind closed eyes, escape from the bombardment of stimulation, and almost instantly the sensations come flooding in, my body vibrating, pulsating, subtly expanding and contracting (separate from both the pulse and the breath): i don't know if this escape helps or makes things worse. it is almost as if all my senses sharpened and focused to the point where it seems like i have lost the ability to filter out extraneous sensory input and the sheer mass of it is overwhelming. i am treading water in a stormy sea. waves crash over my head. i am exhausted.
if anyone has any experience, insight, or advice they wish to share it would be most appreciated.
posted by:
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SF Bay Area
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Re: retreat fallout
Mon, September 13, 2004 - 10:10 PMi also had some very intense episodes while meditating that i am not sure are anywhere within the normal range of experience. no one i have talked to has experienced anything similar to what i describe and that both intrigues and frightens me:
i sit, passing my attention over my body: almost as if my mind is a tuning fork being passed over a tuned string. they cause each other to vibrate with increasing intensity that does not fade, but grows upon itself on each pass. stronger and stronger the vibrations become. my mind and body resonating in perfect and terrible harmony. suddenly something snapped and the process was no longer under my control: mind and body vibrating, resonating, one feeding off the other, both getting stronger. the vibrations become harder - become painful: as if every atom in my body is trying to tear itself free from the others. a consciousness can feel the ego beginning to dissolve; as the edges crumble inwards, falling away into the distance it screams in delighted terror, orgasmic pain. one word makes it through: seizure. too far! too fast! the decision is made to open the eyes, but they are no longer mine to control: there is no I, no me, no my. the eyes are burning, streaming with tears that run down the cheeks. surrender to the experience. hurtling forward into a fractal vortex which consumes every sense. complete synaesthesia. briefly tasting images, smelling colors, seeing sounds, but then the individual senses are no longer distinct in any way: there is merely complete sensation at a resolution far beyond comprehension. there is no breath, no body, no thought: merely a consciousness consumed utterly by sensation. slowly it begins to fade, the 'I' slowly reforms, i become aware of a body which becomes 'my' body seized up in a single paralyzing spasm. slowly i can relax it. i open my still tearing eyes; my cheeks and shirt are both wet with them. i look down: my fists are still white knuckled - i had forgotten to unclench them. i stumble out of the hall, into the sunshine, trying to stop the shaking, trying to stop the vibrations. the vibrations never completely stopped.
two weeks have passed and they are still there, they surge upward every time i close my eyes, blood begins to roar in my ears, just doing anapanna i can feel myself being tugged back there, electricity courses through my body.
the vibration is beginning to verge on something like chinese water torture.
drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip....... -
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Re: retreat fallout
Tue, September 14, 2004 - 11:42 AMi had experiences quite like that during both of the 'retreats' i was at.....i actually had to be taken from the main hall at one point......i found, however, that was part of my lesson....i tend to do everything "over the top"....too much, too fast.....my tacher asked me if i'd get bored with regular meditaion when i didn't have the ability to go so deep.....i really had to think about that.........
i'm wondering why these sensations are like torture to you......try to just accept them as being sensations you've always had, but not been aware of........they aren't unpleasant (some people strive for a long time to get to these states of being).....perhaps it's about letting go, and allowing it to just "be"..........stop trying to control it or understand it... -
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Re: retreat fallout
Tue, September 14, 2004 - 12:58 PMexactly. we all experience intense and uncomfortable sensations--the key point is where we stop reacting to them and they lose their grip on is--then nothing can throw you off kilter. i have spent ~40 days in the past few years in courses--and each course i have gained more insight into what was taught. it can come across as somewhat culty, but it is based in ancient teaching and other than the bit about it being the most correct interpretation handed down through 2500 years--i think it is pretty free of religious overtones. like they say, if you don't agree with one part--don't just throw the whole thing away. in time you may or may not come to accept via direct experience. the way it is taught, you are reminded never to take something as fact just because someone (even the teacher or the buddha himself) said it--you accept it only after having had first hand experinece of it yourself. then, and only then, should one completely accept anything as truth. as i do more courses, i find more and more stuff to be right on--though i have not gotten to the point where i accept and embrace much of it--though i do not write it off--as in reality, i just don't know either way.
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Re: retreat fallout
Tue, September 14, 2004 - 7:09 PMremember to do metta for your last 5 min
this is why it is important you stay til' the very end
i just came back from a 3 day and reminded me how important metta is at the end of the retreat
it is supposed to help erase all the tension and anxiety
it works for me.
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, November 24, 2004 - 10:43 PMI will soon be visiting a 10 day as well underneath Olympia only by a few minutes, It'll be my first retreat... and I am very excited.
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Re: retreat fallout
Thu, November 25, 2004 - 7:36 AMyou were hallucinating. You didn't get away from ego, you went really deeply into it.
Interesting experience you had.
Perhaps, if your meditations are always a hallucination, you should not meditate, at least in the way you have been trained.
I found that the Tibetan method with eyes opened allowed my mind to wander.
When I took up the Theravedic method of eyes closed, I could reach peaceful nothingness.
All the best!
Dave -
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Re: retreat fallout
Thu, November 25, 2004 - 10:45 AMi fully realize what i experienced could be called hallucinating... if you think that reality is only as you see it in an ego bound state. however, i would question your judgement about my ego state. i suggest that ego loss is merely existing in a state in which one is no longer bound by the ego - perciving not in referece to any concept of the self. that leaves a great deal of room for differences of experience.
you seek 'peaceful nothingness'. i seek to percive the world stripped of my social conditioning - the first step of which is to strip away the conditionings that hold us captive within our minds. i am not saying that it is wrong or unbenificial but the asceticism inherent in seeking nothingness is just as unattractive to me as rampant selfindulgence.
i fully embrace the states of being which i attain. words cannot describe any more than dimly the actual experience. it is not the experience which i recoiled from, rather, it was the fact that i seem to have reset that as my true state of being. these things followed me out of the retreat and out of meditations in general. feeling myself going there every time i closed my eyes, finding myself going there in the openeyed world: watching reality disintegrating before my very eyes into symbol and allegory and caractature can be... disorienting and frightening to say the least. this is what caused my initial fears about mental illness ect. -
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, December 1, 2004 - 7:01 AMWhere did you do your Vipassana retreat?
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Unsu...
Re: retreat fallout
Wed, December 1, 2004 - 9:46 AMreally interesting thread. thanks for your honesty re: sharing your mixed experiences during the retreat ... sounds like the standard brainwashing procedure to me (cut 'em off, break 'em down, build 'em back up with a new set of beliefs). right on for keeping your skepticism intact.
i think you'll find ug krishnamurti has a lot of interesting things to say re: spirituality and hypocrisy.
www.well.com/user/jct/
can too much/too intense meditation lead to mental breakdowns? absolutely. it happened to a friend of mine. maybe there also needs to be a genetic predisposition, but intense meditation isn't that physiologically different from dropping acid ... neurotransmitter levels go thru the roof and stable patterns in the brain become unstable (good for breaking out of ruts but not always a good thing). it sounds like you had some pretty intense oversensitization + sleep deprivation going on.
it sounds like you're doing fine and have integrated your experiences, but some earlier responses seems to gloss over you experience and fears a bit which IMHO is total B.S.
anyway thanks for sharing.
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i've been there
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 8:44 AMYou are going through a very universal process. Sometimes triggered by meditation, yoga, entheogens, power places, and inititiatory life conditions. Please know you are not alone. This has traditionally been referred to as a shamanic death, kundalini crisis, or spiritual emergence(y). If you are familiar with Joseph Campbell's the Power of Myth, you may want to refer to "the hero's journey".
You were over-stimulated, your adrenal system is going a little haywire, and tremendous physiological and mental, emotional change is coming about. This can be scary and overwhelming but you must know that ultimatley, the person you are becoming is the person you have set out to be. You will integrate these lessons, your body will return to a resting state, and you will have something much greater than the temporary calm of a retreat, or a spliff, or a good massage, you will integrate and embody real peace, and a greater circle of compassion and acceptance for all beings. Not in the great high, peak, blissful, UNSUSTAINABLE way most people seek it as, but in a tremendously grounded, and practical, and functional Way within the world as it is.
I highly, highly, highly suggest you avoid the following: sugar (including honey, maple syrup, etc), any and all drugs: cannabis, caffeine, alcohol, psychedelics; as well as yoga, meditation, reiki, and sexual contact. All of these things will further stimulate your kundalini energy.
You need grounding. Warm, oily, whole foods: whole-grains and apples with cinammon and walnut oil for breakfast, whole-grains and veggies or beans for lunch, and the same for dinner. Do some grounding things that exercise your body, walking, yardwork, nothing strenuous. If you are biking a lot or running, try to find some other means of getting around.
Are you in a safe, comfortable atmosphere. Minimize stress in your home. Be around family, if not literal family, then friends who are grounded, warm, and loving.
Relieve some of your stress load, can you take time off work or sign up for fewer classes, feel out what seems healthy for you.
Make sure you have plenty of time to rest. That is what you need most. You've exhausted your adrenals. Rest, retreat, and maintain connection to healthy allies. I think you'll find many "angels" around you in the form of new or old family and friends.
Clean emotional house. Who are the people you need to forgive? Really tune yourself to appreciating humanity, and the people you are closest to in life. Accept and forgive parents, siblings, and any institutions or isms that you associate them with. Focus on the integration, appreciation, and acceptance of everything the way it is, not the way you think it should be.
There is a greater universal process driving everything, it's timing is perfect, the flaws and limitations of today are perfect in that everyone is going through the growth process at a different pace. The conditioning you've been holding is being blasted out to the surface, objectively watch it disapear.
!!!Look for the simple, elegant, universal patterns in everything!!!
This process in which you are now greatly involved is part of that. Your beacon, your vehicle to guide you through this chaotic process will be your intuition. Trust your gut. Keep your awareness in the center of your body. Act from the center of your body. Breathe deep, and feel your way through existence, the way you might imagine a blind person would. The intelligence informing the movements, and decisions, and actions of your center, your conscience, is the same wisdom informing the movements of the planets, and the cycles of the forest. The wisdom of your body is replacing the chaos of your mind. Harmony.
I would say you are very, very fortunate. The highest and most transformative grace is suffering. The greatest peace awaits you. You are cultivating a jewel, and you will return to "the village" with much to offer humanity; maturity, awareness, and wisdom, true adult-hood. I tell you this from coming out of the other end of this powerful journey, and I've seen many others through this same quest. This actually, in pre-conventional cultures was a required initiation for all young people coming of age. Trust that you are not lost. You are exactly where you need to be.
You are very, very blessed.
Abiding peace,
Robert -
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excited about going there
Tue, February 8, 2005 - 10:19 AMRobert,
Thanks for the insight and advice for a smooth reentry from vipassana into consensual reality. After reading Ian's post, I was a little hesitant about what I am about to get into, but ultimately, I feel this is right for me now.
I am attending my first vipassana starting tomorrow at the North Fork meditation center, just south of Yosemite. My intentions for attending are, as you put it, to become the person I have set out to be, or from a Thelemic point of view, to find my True Will.
I look forward to taking the first intentional step on my path to awareness. I will sharpen my mind, harden my body, and use these tools to cultivate my spirit.
I look forward to the challenge I face - myself. I am excited about opening myself after this journey and putting my thoughts into something concrete. I plan to follow your advice about grounding and surrounding myself with warm loving friends in a safe environment.
When I get back, I was also thinking about doing a 10 day Bikram Yoga course. Work on mind, body, then spirit is my thinking. Is this a good idea? I guess I'll know how I feel after the course...
Thanks again for the inspiration!
All Ways Living Love,
-steve23
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Re: i've been there, too
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 11:39 AMExcellent post Robert.
"I've" been "there", too. ;)
If you are at a retreat and you end up in the hospital with western doctors telling you that you are experiencing "psychosis" or that you are "crazy" then you might choose to believe that for a while until you start hearing about some of the things that Robert is talking about which have been talked about in various traditions over many many years.
Then you start to meet other people who have had similar experiences and felt that they learned from them.
A related link for you:
www.kundalini-teacher.com/sympt...s.html
This book that came out in the 80s, I think, called "Kundalini or Psychosis?" but it's out of print. Someone has put it up here online:
www.skaggs-island.org/humanis...ini.html
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Re: retreat fallout
Tue, February 8, 2005 - 2:13 PMok... i'm registered to go the 10 day course that starts tommorrow. i am a new student of meditation in general.. and am having trouble quieting my mind on my own.
after reading this post, i am very hesitant to go. i am in a really fragile place in my life right now. my wife of 17 years wants a divorce... and my livelyhood is in serious question with my musical endevours.
i realize that this will be difficult... but i'm kind of scared now. i'm already near a breakdown on a daily basis. i thought that by learning to quiet the mind... i can find some grounding of my own. (which is HUGELY what i need).
any thoughts? -
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, February 9, 2005 - 5:28 PMi suggest that you hold off on doing the course.
i am also at a very fragile spot in my life. while under proper guidance i see it may be possible for the course to strip the "problems" away as well as the ego... i think you should go into it calmly and readily.
i've heard some of these "horror stories" from various people (one girl couldn't - or wouldn't - speak for a year after), and if something like that will occur with me, i'd rather it be when most other things in life are at a calm lull.
i have been searching myself, and have recently had a very stressful situation that triggered a recurrance of depression, and i have come to realize that i have other hints of psychological problems/illnesses that will need to be fully addressed before i move deeper. the vipassana web site also makes it very clear that people with mental illnesses should not attend. i could just be "psyching myself out', and in your case, though you might have circumstantial potential, it doesnt sound like psychology is you problem...
on the other hand, the "success stories" i've heard are wonderful. one guy saw his whole path ahead of him, and even the events and the right choices to make in his future. very enlightening to discover your true self and Way. but you're sort-of doing an operation or deep internal cleansing on yourself, and you definitely don't want a super-high pulse or shaky hands going into it.
as for me, i think i'll wait until a little later in my life to approach this. i'm very interested and excited about vipassana, but recognize that i'm just not ready. in the meantime i'm focusing on healthy, positive, productive habits in life and cognition, and i'll be off to a doctor when i'm again employed to see about depression, ocd, etc... -
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Re: retreat fallout
Fri, February 11, 2005 - 9:32 AMthe reason i posted was to:
a. look for input from people with more/different experience/insight than myself.
and b. to ensure that people were aware of the possibility for an entire spectrum of human experiences from such an intense undertaking.
i would not want to discourage people from embarking on such a powerful personal undertaking - it is just that this is something i believe must be entered into with an open heart and open eyes.
it has been a difficult and beautiful path since.
once one's eyes have been opened they cannot be re-closed without a willful and obstinate lust for ignorance and deception of self and others that i do not posses.
to be honest i have been flirting with the idea of a second retreat... (although i cant quite believe it myself ;). another resource i have discovered are centers from another vipassana tradition that offers single day retreats. although i have not had the chance to attend one yet, i will be.
love and light -
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, February 23, 2005 - 1:26 PMHere is a technique that has worked for me when I was having a near-mental breakdown due to an overly efficient connection with the senses during meditation. I called it "anti-meditation": basically, whenever a thought comes, instead of pushing it away, pursue it, just talk to yourself as much as possible. This was very effective in calming me down.
I want to mention that I have almost no experience in this area other than the 10 day course I just finished (with some very very strange states of my own to recount). So it is quite possible that this advice is harmful in some way - going back in the direction of the ego, maybe? But in terms of calming self down, it definitely worked for me ;)
Good luck, Ian.
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, April 27, 2005 - 3:55 PMIt soundz like you already know that there's something in this vipassana thing that's worth investigating. Ultimately it's all about your own personal investigation, you own personal truth, and i think you've got enough wisdom in you that you know that already. After doing nine courses i can tell you that no two courses are ever the same, so if you do take another course, you're pretty much guaranteed that it'll be different than you last one. Disturbing phychotic experiences seem to happen to people with a history of drug usage, it seems that with those experiences, the mind is conditioned into some crazy, trippy patterns (i only say this from observing the meditators around me).(and the metta practice can help alot when comming out of a retreat),
good luck with whatever you decide
charlene -
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Re: retreat fallout
Sun, July 23, 2006 - 12:59 AM"Disturbing phychotic experiences seem to happen to people with a history of drug usage."
I'd have to disagree. It has been my experience that some people (who do not have a history of drug useage) can hear things that others do not hear or can see things that others do not see (at a particular moment in time). It doesn't mean that they are on or have been doing drugs. Many, apparently, have even been doing this before most of our modern drugs were even invented.
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, May 23, 2007 - 8:38 AM"Disturbing phychotic experiences seem to happen to people with a history of drug usage."
I for one did a LOT of drugs as a teen, alongside meditation and other spiritual practices. I've never had a bad experience or been unable to keep my calm, even when walls were undulating and people were disappearing into corners. I would even be willing to assert that those who have experience with psychedelics especially would be almost better able to handle strange experiences as they. I guess this is from the user's lived knowledge of annica - every high has its inevitable down.
I don't mean to suggest that this is the path for anyone other than myself, and I no longer have an ounce of desire to use drugs, just thought I'd throw this out there.
As for a previous poster's idea of 'anti-meditation' or going with thoughts as they arise. You need to be careful. If those thoughts are about how bad your experience is, they'll just make it worse and you'll be caught in a whirlpool that sinks you down deeper. If you start to think of something random to distract you, like what a great piece of toast you had for breakfast, I could possibly see that. But I still think what you're really aiming for is to look at your experience with equanimity. Observe the sensation and do not judge. Stop the judging mind. Just observe. Don't even judge the judging mind. Just recognize you've had that thought, and go back to observing the object of meditation. If you're saying you have sensory overload - that too is a judgment. Try to just accept and move on. Good luck with your practice!
May all be happy
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 10:16 AMI may be weighing in a little late, but my experience on the 10-day North Fork retreat over New Years was fantastic. I went expecting very little -- was worried I'd be surrounded by pseudospiritual hippies all claiming to be making breakthroughs while I just sat there, bored, but figured that at the very least, it was 10 days without refined sugar and in the woods so whatever. I was, thank goodness, totally wrong: I found the retreat to be exactly what I needed, and walked out of there feeling, healthier, stronger, and happier than I have in years.
The thing that surprised me most was that I could actullay do it. I learned how to meditate, finally, after being unsuccessful with it for years. While I don't fall entirely in line with some of the philosophy of the tradition, I did give myself over entirely to the physical practice - I made it to every 4:30am sit, and I worked hard in every session. I accepted the things that I needed to do to make myself just comfortable enough to be able to focus on the work, like asking for a backrest as my abs are not in shape enough to handle so much upright sitting. I set aside my internal arguments against doing anything group-related, and I made a conscious effort to really think about and follow the guidelines in spirit as well as to the letter.
I had had a very difficult year due to illness and depression, and the retreat helped me jumpstart my energy and focus. There was definitely an element of surrender, but not in a "god will handle my problems" way. It was more of "I'm going to really give the practice a chance to work and not cut any corners". I had moments of crying and moments of having to hold in laughter. I felt kind of high for part of the time, and inventive and imaginitive in a way that I hadn't in a long time. I also felt frustrated and cranky and humbled and proud. I made a conscious effort to not compare myself to others.
I think that the practice is terrific, and effective, but it's not for everyone aat efery stage of their lives. I had heard fo about the retreat over 6 years ago, but I hadn't felt ready to go until last December. I recommend waiting until your deisre to explore it is greater than your fear of doing so, so that you can get the most out of it. -
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Re: retreat fallout
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 8:31 PM'Glad that you could make it in spite of your illness. We have to now sit daily for our meditation to get the most out of it.
Be Happy
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Re: retreat fallout
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 9:56 PMI agree with holding off on this or any other intensive internal excercise when one is in psychological pain, turmoil, crisis, etc. I have done two 10 day vipassana courses over the last 3 years. I think they are wonderful opportunies to learn a method for spiritual work and to experience an intensive, dedicated period of personal focus (something that is otherwise often impossible in the modern urban world).
That being said, it is powerful stu\ff. Even without the meditation, someone in a poor mental state could have a breakdown from 10 days of being forced to focus on the self (rather than drugs, literature, tv, other people, etc.)
Unfortunately, I think the nature and intensity of these retreats can sometimes attract people that have never business being there at that point in ther lives.
As for the cultish qualities, I didn't personally get that vibe much but have heard it from others. I am generally a very skeptical person, but here I didn't feel like I was being converted to anything. And I haven't. I am no more a buddhist then when I went in, nor am I a devotee of Goenka or Vipassana-style meditation. I have found it useful. I try to use it as a tool. And thats about it. My biggest complaint is that those 10 day courses are great, but that incorporating the technique into a daily practice is exceedingly difficult. The technique is hard work and I have definitely struggled to keep it up outside of the monastic setting. -
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Re: retreat fallout
Tue, March 8, 2005 - 6:40 AMafter having attended a retreat WHILE being in a very fragile place emotionally, i can say that it was a great thing for me to do personally. i can't recommend it for anybody in that is near an emotional collapse (as i was). i guess i had nowhere else to go but inside. i actually tried to leave three times... and each time was encouraged to wait until morning. each night i lay in bed and thought that i really didn't have anywhere to run but inside myself anyway... so i might as well stay.
it was the hardest thing i've ever done.
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Re: retreat fallout
Mon, April 18, 2005 - 9:28 AMian,
thank you so much for your free expression. i think i lack the experience and knowledge to comment on your situation, but:
"basketcase"
"mental breakdown"
and "mental illness"...
are self-fulfilling labels! stop separating yourself from others by labels! naming the self supports the ego. you are infinte and can not be defined. accept your experience, don't fight it, embrace the chaos.
anything that you experience in or from vipassana has nothing to do with vipassana and everything to do with you. there is no ideal condition for healing, healing is constantly taking place regardless of your environment. no matter it feels like, you are healing on one level or another. your surface experience is never conclusive. when i left vipassana, i felt suicidal. i wished with a heart full of regret that i had never set foot in vipassana. i felt like my state of despair was final. but three months later, it's gone. i feel different now, glad for the experience of suffering that made me stronger.
"vipassana" is also a label. but awareness and change are infinite concepts.
i apologize if i seem harsh, i'm just expressing passion. i know i made a lot of absolute statements... my writing is also as much (or more) directed to myself as it is to you. my only intention is to send you pure love, support, and gratefulness. remember your inner strength and the absolute devotion to survival that you have no control over. it is there.
love and light,
nora -
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, April 27, 2005 - 7:43 PMa friend who has done a number of courses shared a technique with me that a teacher taught her to assist in dealing with crazy intense emotional overload:
going through the body fast in really big chunks (ie: head, front, back, arms, legs) feet, hands, feet, hands. and then from the top again (ie: only going the one direction). -
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Re: retreat fallout
Wed, May 11, 2005 - 3:28 AMJust found this tribe..reading this thread, I'm feeling like it's a good place for me........ I've taken a few three day meditation classes (not quite a retreat) and they were great experiences.........at one point I remember feeling like the person I want to be (I know, more desire......) I have trouble finding balance in my life and much of what I read and hear of buddhist philosophy seems like it could help me in that area......... I recently looked up a 10 day vipassana retreat on line and was a bit freaked out by all the meditating..........I can imagine me and my fears absolutely face to face....... how much denial could possibly be left after that much introspection.......could bring me great peace......seems like a gamble to me.........Maybe a bit much right now.......think I could handle a serious 3 day though.......anyone know of one they could recomend............. again, I'm glad to of found you'z guys........happy trails
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Re: retreat fallout
Sat, June 3, 2006 - 2:24 PM
Hi eYen,
thanks for your honest account of your experience in and after a vipassana retreat. And to everybody else here for such a generous sharing.
I would be interested now: 2 1/2 years after such an opening - how far you feel to have been able to integrate your experience in your daily life? What is the difference? - How you feel today about it?
For anyone interested in my story - though from the perspective of trying to put such experiences in the context of the Buddha Dhamma:
de.geocities.com/pamojja/vipassana.htm -
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Learn to throttle the intesity of your awareness
Wed, July 12, 2006 - 1:36 PMgreat thread.... i think i may have some important advice to share.... Some of us have the balls to shed the lazer of our consciousness a bit brighter then other people.
what i would reccomend that when you are doing this practice realize you have the power to throttle the intensity of the lazer of their consciousness. and that you dont need to prove anything to anyone about how much torture you can withstand. its actually possible to crave pain and avoid pleasure, in some sort of effort to prove how much you can bear..... this is beautiful but tragic, something i learned the heard way
Be compassionate with yourself and dont think that you need to prove something to yourself and others and get all the shit out in one sitting. As you feel overwhelmed come back to anna panna. the straighter you sit and the more you stretch you inner legs and get your sexual energy going the brigher the flames will shine... its ok to be compassionate with yourself and if you feel overwhelmed to kneel on a bench and droop a bit. i have had to learn this lesson the hard way. learn to take a warm bath and gently cry in the bathub of pure consciousness and love. You dont need to torture yourself in the firey pits of hell..... It took me many years to learn that i was actually avoiding pleasure and beating myself with vipassana out of guilt and shame for myseld.... learn to balance the role of being your own compassionate mother and drill seargeant.... when in doubt allow yourself to droop and anna panna, on a bench.... let go of the shame -
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Re: Learn to throttle the intesity of your awareness
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 11:10 PMwow. very well said. can't be said enough really.
i remember how on a "peace walk" from mt hood to portland for the dalai lama visit, in our nightly circle this issue of walking for peace, walking for non-violence, and some of the walkers having to look at how much violence they were inflicting on themselves by walking. at what point did the desire to walk in solidarity turn to violence? letting go of some idea that they should suffer for peace. Not that there isn't some important lessons to be learned from observing pain, and to suffer with. but at what point is that learned.
anyway, thanks. -
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Re: Learn to throttle the intesity of your awareness
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 8:00 AMNice to here of the Dalai Lama. He's a great fan of Goenkajee. He may not be asking his lay followeres to walk the dhamma/vipassana path, but he sure gives his Lamas the 10 day maditation course. Many of his Rimpoches have done Vipassana courses.
For me the "peace walk" can only be on the noble eight-fold path, i.e. vipassaa or dhamma. Hope all of us continue sitting for our daily meditations.
Meta -
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Re: Learn to throttle the intesity of your awareness
Wed, April 11, 2007 - 3:02 PMQuote: www.shambhalasun.com/index.php
Shambhala Sun | September 2001 | Excerpt
'The Universal Meditation Technique of S.N. Goenka' - by Norman Fischer
Norman Fischer: I understand that you have a good friendship with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Can you tell us how that developed, particularly since His Holiness' tradition, with all its color and ritual, contrasts with your approach?
S.N. Goenka: In the first year when I moved to India from Burma, there was a big public function put on by Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar's followers, who had become Buddhists. They invited me to their annual celebration of the day that Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism. There were some one and a half million people in attendance. His Holiness the Dalai Lama was invited, along with me and the Japanese teacher Fuji Guruji. We were invited as chief guests, and each of us gave a speech. Mine was translated into Tibetan and His Holiness liked it so much that he said that he wanted to meet me and discuss things.
We started at nine o'clock the next morning and at two-thirty or three we were still talking-all about technique. He was very happy with my teaching. But when I said, "Quite a few people on the second day or third day see light," he responded, "No, no. That must be illusion. How can somebody see light in three days? It takes years to see light."
I replied, "Venerable sir, I saw light in my eyes. And so have many other people. I would not say it is an illusion. You better send a few of your lamas and let them experience it. If I am wrong, I will rectify it. I don't teach them that they must see light. It is merely a sign, a milestone on a long path, not the final goal."
So he sent three lamas to my next course in Sarnath. All three of them saw light, and they were so happy. When they went back and explained that to His Holiness, he was also happy. He said, "Goenka, come here and give a course to my people." Then I wrote him back, "When I give a course these are the rules. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but if your high lamas don't agree to my rules, I cannot teach." He sent a message back to me, "Goenka, they will follow whatever you say for the full ten days. So don't worry; they will follow your rules."
The course took place in the Tibetan library in Dharamsala, not far from where His Holiness was living. On the first day, when I told all the very top-ranking lamas my rules, they protested: "But every day, we have rituals to perform, we have to chant so many recitations, we have to prostrate so many times."
"Nothing doing," I replied. "For ten days, nothing doing." And they said, "No, we can't break our life-long vow." So I sent word to the Dalai Lama, "Sir, I can't teach. Your people don't agree. I'm sorry, I have to go." And he sent word to the lamas through his private secretary, "You have to follow Goenka's instructions, even if it means breaking your rules. Whatever he says, you must agree to do." They all did it, and they got the same result. Rites or no rites, rituals or no rituals, the technique gives results.
Normally I don't go out during a course, but the Dalai Lama wanted to discuss how it was going, so I visited him two times. We had long discussions in detail about the technique I teach and about his technique also-without judging, just exploring with inquisitiveness. We each enjoyed our discussions tremendously. Since then we have been friends.
I am not interested in any kind of politics. Of course I have great sympathy for whatever is happening to the Tibetan people, but I can't take up that cause. It's not part of my duty as a dharma teacher. Even the most undemocratic person, even the greatest tyrant, will be a good person if he practices. Just as Buddha was not interested in the politics of the different kings of his day, so that's not my job either. His Holiness understands that very well. We are not political friends, but rather dharma friends.
He did keep asking me about sunnata, emptiness. "You've got no sunnata?" he would ask. But after I explained my understanding of it, he accepted what I said: that when all solidity is dissolved in the technique, and there's nothing but vibration remaining, that is sunnata. Then you experience something beyond mind and matter-sunna-nothing to hold there. You have sunna of the mind and matter sphere and sunna of the beyond mind and matter sphere. His Holiness seemed to be quite happy with that explanation. He had no objection.
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